S9E4 Connecting Maine: The Future of Rural Transit & Community Resilience

In this episode, we sit down with Jennifer Grant, Lisa Smith, and Katherine Freund to discuss the critical challenges and innovative, community-driven solutions shaping transportation resilience, volunteer driver programs, and the future of mobility in rural Maine.

Also listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music, and iHeartRadio.

Guest Bios

• Jennifer Grant – Director of the Bureau of Planning at the Maine Department of Transportation (MaineDOT). She has been with MaineDOT for 10 years and in her current role for two years.
• Lisa Smith – Interim Executive Director and Mobility Manager at the Aroostook County Transportation System (ARTS). A lifelong resident of Aroostook County, Lisa brings over 10 years of experience working with non-profit organizations and nearly five years with ARTS.
• Katherine Freund – President & CEO of the Independent Transportation Network of America (ITNAmerica), located in Westbrook, Maine. She is an internationally recognized pioneer in senior and rural mobility policy and practice.

Resources

• MaineDOT Public Transit Program – The division within MaineDOT directed by Jennifer Grant, managing federal grants, statewide transit compliance, regional bus service networks, and strategic policy implementation across Maine.
• Public Transit Advisory Council (PTAC) – A statutory advisory body hosted administratively by MaineDOT that collaborates with state planners and transit leaders to advise the Governor and Legislature on public transit services, funding transparency, and statewide coordination.
• Aroostook Regional Transportation System (ARTS) – The primary rural transit provider in Aroostook County, leading demand-response services, non-emergency medical rides, and community transit routes.
• Moving Maine Network – A statewide multi-sector coalition focusing on overcoming rural geographic barriers, promoting mobility equity, and improving cross-agency transportation coordination.
• ITNAmerica – The national nonprofit network founded by Katherine Freund to provide consumer-oriented, dignified transportation for older adults and individuals with visual impairments.
• ITNCountry – A specialized technology and support platform designed by ITNAmerica to empower small, rural communities to build and manage their own volunteer-driver networks.
• Rides in Sight – A free national searchable clearinghouse and hotline created by ITNAmerica to connect rural residents, older adults, and caregivers with local transportation options.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Lisa Smith: I think that if we can get other key players in to talk about the importance of transportation and to get more volunteers on board and to coordinate the resources that we have, I think the state of Maine, however large it is, doing great things at making sure that everybody stays connected.

[00:00:16] Eric Miller: Hello and welcome back to Maine Policy Matters, the official podcast of the Margaret Chase Smith Policy Center at the University of Maine, where we discuss the policy matters that are most important to Maine’s people and why Maine policy matters at the local, state, and national levels.

[00:00:31] Eric Miller: My name is Eric Miller, and I’ll be your host. Today, we’ll be interviewing Jennifer Grant, Lisa Smith, and Katherine Freund on the critical challenges and innovative community-driven solutions shaping transportation resilience, volunteer driver programs, and the future of mobility in rural Maine. Jennifer Grant has been with the Maine Department of Transportation for 10 years and has served as the director of the Bureau of Planning for the last two years.

[00:00:59] Eric Miller: A University of Maine graduate who earned her Bachelor of Science in Bioresource Engineering and her Master’s in Public Administration, Jennifer has a wealth of experience in various fields of study. MaineDOT’s Bureau of Planning acts as the primary point of contact with Maine municipalities, metropolitan and regional planning organizations, partners, stakeholders, and advocates for all modes of transportation, in addition to working to develop long-range plans and policies related to transportation.

[00:01:29] Eric Miller: Lisa Smith is a lifelong resident of Aroostook County with over 10 years of experience working with nonprofit organizations. She is the mobility manager and interim executive director at the Aroostook County Transportation System, ARTS for short, where she has been for nearly five years. In her role, Lisa works to identify and overcome barriers to effective transportation while working closely with citizens, agencies, and partner organizations. She earned her Bachelor’s in Business Administration from the University of Maine at Presque Isle.

[00:02:02] Eric Miller: Katherine Freund is the president and CEO of the Independent Transportation Network of America, located in Westbrook, Maine. Freund is an internationally recognized pioneer in senior and rural mobility policy and practice.

[00:02:16] Eric Miller: Freund earned a public policy degree from the University of Southern Maine’s Edmund S. Muskie School of Public Service and founded the flagship local Independent Transportation Network, ITN for short, and the national ITN America. She has spent decades scaling community-based, volunteer-driven transportation networks across the US to ensure dignified, reliable transportation for older adults and people with mobility challenges.

[00:02:43] Eric Miller: A lack of reliable transportation can be a barrier for accessing employment, grocery stores, education, healthcare, and other essential services. For rural Mainers, who make up 61.4% of all of Maine’s population, transportation is a very important part of their lives. Because rural households on average travel 50% more vehicle miles than urban households Citizens who do not have access to a personal vehicle are at a significant disadvantage.

[00:03:13] Eric Miller: And while mass public transportation is a sustainable mode in more urban areas, due to low population density and geographical isolation, rural Mainers prefer riding in personal vehicles. According to the Maine Policy Review’s article, “Rural Resilience: The Role for Innovative Public Transportation,” quote, “The economic implications of the lack of access, costs of transportation relative to incomes, and older population make communities, especially in northern, central, and eastern Maine, more vulnerable to transportation infrastructure disturbances and extreme weather events,” end quote.

[00:03:49] Eric Miller: Rural transportation has been discussed in a previous Maine Policy Matters episode, where panelists shed light on the fact that a lack of reliable transportation is deeply intertwined with food insecurity, because w- even when hunger fighting programs are in place, they’re not as effective when residents have no safe way to access them.

[00:04:09] Eric Miller: To address this accessibility barrier, organizations on the ground and MaineDOT have been taking steps to help members of rural communities meet their transportation needs. The Maine Policy Review has published several papers on transportation in rural Maine, shining light on persistent challenges and providing awareness about transportation initiatives.

[00:04:27] Eric Miller: Some of these initiatives include the Aroostook Regional Transportation System and the Independent Transportation Network. ARTS and ITN are nonprofit organizations that provide door-to-door transportation with ITN specifically servicing older adults and people with mobility challenges. ITN’s founder and one of today’s panelists, Katherine Freund, published an article with the Maine Policy Review called, quote, “Getting From Here to There: Maine’s Elder Transportation Challenge,” where she discusses the problem of transportation for older individuals in Maine.

[00:05:01] Eric Miller: And now, our conversation about rural transportation in Maine.

[00:05:14] Eric Miller: Hi, all. Thank you so much for joining us today. How do you define transportation resilience within the geographic and demographic context of rural Maine? Lisa, if you wouldn’t mind starting us off.

[00:05:26] Lisa Smith: I think about the ability to adapt and to change and to see the upcoming needs of the community that we serve.

[00:05:33] Lisa Smith: So in Aroostook County, we cover 6,600 square miles, and we also cover part of Washington County and also part of Penobscot County. And so some of our passengers are coming 85 miles each way from Allagash to Presque Isle to get to the essential services that they need. So regardless of the challenges that we have with, whether it be with climate, whether it be with funding, whether it be with vehicles in the fleet that we have, we just always need to be thinking forward as to what the next challenges are and how we can mitigate those so that we can make sure that everybody’s connected to the services and have the independence that they need.

[00:06:12] Eric Miller: That is an incredible amount of area that you all are covering out there. Jen, from your planning perspective, what does resilience mean?

[00:06:21] Jennifer Grant: Yeah. So I think Lisa covered a lot of what we think about it mean just at a larger statewide scale. One of the biggest things is maintaining the actual hard infrastructure, right?

[00:06:31] Jennifer Grant: The roads, bridges that people rely on to get to medical appointments, their jobs, what have you. But I think taking a step back, that re- network redundancy, having a variety of different transportation options is crucial. As folks age in place, being able to get them where they need to go, having on-demand or demand response options, volunteer driver networks in more of the rural areas is super crucial.

[00:07:01] Jennifer Grant: In some of the more populated areas, there is fixed route transit, but most of the state does not have that option. And really, the last piece, which is the foundation of all of this, is the funding and support to enable all of these things to exist and to continue to operate, whether it’s providing coordination of transportation options, different platforms for people to access transportation.

[00:07:27] Jennifer Grant: Those are all super critical components of the transportation network as well

[00:07:33] Eric Miller: The aging in place part of it segues really nicely to Katherine, the, the Independent Transportation Network. I’m really curious about what resilience means for you all and people aging in place in Maine being one of the oldest states in the country.

[00:07:46] Katherine Freund: Yeah, I don’t think I think of it in terms of resilience as much as I think of figuring out ways to meet the unmet need. I think there’s more unmet need than there is met need, and that’s not just so of Maine, that’s so of rural communities across the United States. So for me, that means how to think of innovative and creative ways to increase the supply.

[00:08:16] Katherine Freund: That’s the big issue. I know transportation coordination is important, but there’s more unmet need than there is need. So however much you coordinate what there is, there’s still so much more that needs to happen. And when transportation needs are met in rural areas, it tends to be access to healthcare because that gets paid for by Medicaid.

[00:08:42] Katherine Freund: But healthy aging is a lot more than going to the doctor. Healthy aging is ending social isolation, it’s nutrition, it’s socialization, it’s exercise, it’s having a healthy life. And so the amount of needs that are met is … And I’m not trying to be critical here, I’m just saying there is so much need out there in, in rural communities for people to have full and meaningful lives and not, not continuously learn to do without.

[00:09:16] Katherine Freund: There’s a lot of learning to do without. And so the more we find ways to create the supply, whether it’s through volunteer drivers, which I think is a huge part of it, or looking at innovative ways to pay for transportation beyond public funding

[00:09:46] Eric Miller: There’s so much interesting things to pull, to tug at with what you just said. And I think that what we hope to achieve with this discussion is to talk about how much unrecognized need there is and how critical it is that people are connected and not, and like you mentioned, Katherine, not just to doctor’s appointments.

[00:10:06] Eric Miller: Connectivity, physical connectivity in rural areas is integral for a full, fulfilling life. And so Lisa, at ARTS, what specific initiatives or models are you all currently implementing to improve transit access and infrastructure in these rural communities, getting to that supply that Katherine was talking about?

[00:10:30] Eric Miller: And have there been any results that have been, that met your expectations or surprises of how many people are engaging in these initiatives or where?

[00:10:39] Lisa Smith: Sure. So the Aroostook Workforce Connector is a unique program. We started this program two years ago as a pilot program to get people to work and home from work.

[00:10:50] Lisa Smith: And that program originally was built around a model where we had designated bus stops, and individuals would get to those stops and we would take them to specific designated employers. And for three months we found that our drivers were riding around by themselves, parked in parking lots waiting for people that never showed up, and to go to employers to pick people up who had found another ride to work or were not working.

[00:11:19] Lisa Smith: So we decided to pivot that model at that time. The purpose of the program was to get people to work, and we were not getting passengers, so we started doing demand response. So it’s the same as our public transit. Individuals call and they schedule. We pick them up at their homes, get them to work and from work, and that program has been huge for us.

[00:11:40] Lisa Smith: The impact of that alone, we’ve done over 25,000 trips. We have brought more than 200 employees to over 125 different places of work within Aroostook County. And the impact that’s had in terms of seeing the success, we’ve done rider surveys and found with one gentleman, he had not had a license in 12 years, and so he was using our service to get to work and back.

[00:12:09] Lisa Smith: When he found out that we provided the workforce transportation and he was able to get extra hours because he could now work later because he could drive himself home rather than rely on a coworker to bring him home, he could work extra shifts on Saturday. We had a lady tell us how wonderful it was that she was able to take a job two miles from home, and she was able to go off the state-supplied health insurance that she had in order to have private health insurance through her employer, which she had never had before.

[00:12:41] Lisa Smith: We had a young lady and her son move into their first apartment before Christmas two years ago as a result of the program and being able to get a job. So sometimes even if you’re only, you know, a mile or two from home, when you’re talking about rural Maine with the weather like it is, sidewalks that aren’t walkable or well-lit, then we’re seeing people that are just turning their lives around.

[00:13:04] Lisa Smith: And, you know, being able to leave the homeless shelter for an apartment means somebody else can move into that spot that there’s probably a wait list for. And one of the most impactful stories was when I, a gentleman told me how excited he was when he heard that the public health nurse had been in talking to him, doing an evaluation on his son, and he said, “I could not believe when she told me there was a program that would pick me up at home and take me to work and bring me back home.”

[00:13:31] Lisa Smith: He goes, “I couldn’t get off the couch fast enough.” And as much as we think that the reason people are not employed is because they don’t want to work or you hear the stigma that people are lazy or they want free things- If you do not have a way to get to work, you’re not gonna fill out the application, you’re not gonna accept the job.

[00:13:48] Lisa Smith: And people generally want to have a purpose in life, a place to go, a way to give back, a way to improve their lives. So it’s just been an amazing project that we’ve had. MaineDOT have supported us in that, which has been fantastic. We’ve had a few local employers support us. Now we’ve started charging a $5 fare.

[00:14:08] Lisa Smith: It was free for the first two years that we had the program. Our passengers are understanding that $5, you know, for the day, that means there and back for that trip, is a small price to pay for the reliability of being able to use public transit that picks you up at home, gets you to work when you need to be there, and gets you back home at the end of the day.

[00:14:30] Lisa Smith: And it’s just empowered so many people in our county and made such a big difference.

[00:14:34] Eric Miller: That’s amazing. And talk about tugging at heartstrings with mother and child make- getting in into an apartment before Christmas. Jen, the engagement that MaineDOT has with some of these programs, what do you all do, whether it’s something you’d like to touch on at DOT in the planning office or something like ARTS that you’ve engaged with across the state, what has sticks out to you?

[00:14:55] Jennifer Grant: Yeah. So Lisa brought up the Workforce Transportation Pilot, which we received $5 million in ARPA funds to administer this program. And so we had, I believe, 12 different entities utilize this funding across the state, a variety of employers. And I think what it’s provided, as Lisa mentioned, is opportunity.

[00:15:17] Jennifer Grant: It’s been mutually beneficial, I think, for folks who are looking for employment and a way to get there, but also for employers who were trying to find workforce, people to, to work for them, and maybe in an area where they’ve already tapped out the eligible workforce, and maybe being able to get people from other communities that maybe otherwise wouldn’t be able to get there.

[00:15:43] Jennifer Grant: So this program has provided funding in the form of, in some cases, vehicles, van pools to be able to get folks back and forth, pay for the actual operations, so all aspects of that. So it’s been very successful. I think it’s something that we would love to continue pending av- available funding. So that’s one thing.

[00:16:03] Jennifer Grant: I know, just taking a step back, back in 2023, Maine released our family of plans, and one of the plans that was part of that family was the Maine State Transit Plan. And within that plan, we identified specific focus areas, and rural transit accessibility was one of them, and that was the first, the first thing identified.

[00:16:24] Jennifer Grant: Service structure and coordination was another. Funding and technology were others. And so those are some things that we’re really focused on trying to find strategies to help improve those different focus areas. Another way that we’re doing that is by we’ve increased our state operating funds to help match federal and local funds for transit providers.

[00:16:47] Jennifer Grant: It’s not as much as folks would like, but it’s what we can manage right now. We’re hoping moving forward we can increase those amounts. But we’ve set aside funding for operations. We’ve also set aside some funding for what we call transit innovations, and that’s really looking at new pilots. If providers would like to pilot a new route, this is funding that can help do that.

[00:17:10] Jennifer Grant: If they need transit vehicles, this funding can do that. So it’s just different sources of funds that can help supplement things that they’re looking at doing. And really looking at being innovative. I think, as Lisa mentioned, being able to pivot and adapt I think is so critical. Our wor- world is changing every day, and the needs that people have are changing, so I think the ability to, to adapt has been super helpful.

[00:17:36] Jennifer Grant: One of the other things I wanted to touch on was LD 1451, which was a resolve in the last legislative session. And what it does is requires MaineDOT to create this Maine Coordinating Working Group on Access and Mobility. And this group is comprised of representatives from MaineDOT, as well as some other state agencies like Department of Labor, Department of Ed, DHHS, as well as some other groups representing transit providers, older Mainers, younger Mainers, people with lived experience.

[00:18:08] Jennifer Grant: So there’s a whole group of people who are at the table, and really what we’re looking at is how can we improve coordination across state agencies to leverage the funding we do have for transportation. Because other state agencies do get some funding for transportation that’s… It does have very specific eligibility requirements.

[00:18:30] Jennifer Grant: But we’re really trying to identify ways that we can maximize that funding. And so this group is developing an implementation plan of how we can really pull together this mobility management approach across the state and help improve access to transportation is the ultimate goal. So that’s something I’m involved in here with MaineDOT.

[00:18:52] Jennifer Grant: We’re looking to have a draft of that plan published later this fall. So looking forward to that

[00:18:59] Eric Miller: Cool. Very cool. And I’m hearing adaptability, sustainability, f- financing. And so Katherine, at the Independent Transportation Network, what types of initiatives and projects that you all are working on to facilitate transportation and connectivity?

[00:19:16] Katherine Freund: I just wanna quickly say that I’m so impressed with the story that Lisa told about trying something for a couple months, it didn’t work, and then trying something else and having a big success. That’s, I think, the resilience you were talking about. It’s a beautiful example, and I love that she said that employers are helping to pay for things, and I love that you’re charging a fare.

[00:19:43] Katherine Freund: In our minds, somehow people think transportation should be free or that it’s not expensive, and that’s one of the reasons there’s so little of it because it is very expensive. And I don’t know where that idea came from. The roads are not free, right? The gas in the cars is not free. Why should the rides be free?

[00:20:01] Katherine Freund: So congratulations. Beautiful story. So what do we do to be innovative? We have a lot of different things that we do to be innovative and we’ve built it into the technology so that anyone who wants to try it can do it. So we have a program where people can trade the cars they can no longer drive and put the value of the car into a personal transportation account and then debit it to pay for their rides.

[00:20:28] Katherine Freund: I gave someone a ride recently to H&R Block with her boyfriend, and they were in their 80s, to go do their taxes, and they were riding for free because she traded in a Buick two years before. She got a couple thousand dollars for it and she’d been riding on it. That’s an example of what we do. Y- sometimes the answers are right in front of us and we’re just not looking at them the right way.

[00:20:51] Katherine Freund: Like m- most older people, they give the car to their grandchildren, and we said, “There’s a transportation asset. Let’s liquidate that and put it in an account and you can ride on it.” Another program we have is the largest cost of transportation is actually not the vehicles, not the fuel, not the insurance, it’s labor.

[00:21:12] Katherine Freund: So w- when you have a nonprofit solution that uses volunteer labor, you go a long way toward stretching your resources and being sustainable. But we realize that volunteers who drive other people, sooner or later something happens to them, a knee replacement, something, and then there’s nobody to drive them.

[00:21:36] Katherine Freund: So we created transportation credits for volunteering to drive. We put it in people’s personal transportation accounts, and then when they are older, someone else can drive them. They can pay it forward. So those are examples. We also have something called transportation gift certificates that by the time you’re…

[00:21:54] Katherine Freund: We serve, most of the people we serve are over 80 and probably have enough bathrobes and cologne by the time you’re 80, or slippers. So we have transportation gift certificates so that your adult children, wherever they live, can help to pay for your ride. So that’s what I mean about thinking innovatively about meeting this need because it is expensive.

[00:22:19] Katherine Freund: It is. And these kinds of innovations help to cover the cost. And it doesn’t mean that people who use the independent transportation network can’t also take the RTP paratransit when they want to or take the bus when they want to or walk. Couple quick numbers for you: 90% of trips that older people take are in automobiles, 90%, and 8% are walking.

[00:22:44] Katherine Freund: 2% are everything else. So it really, it’s the cars and how you can do something with the equity in the cars or the replace the drivers with volunteers is what’s gonna, I think, help people. The example Lisa gave of nobody wanting to go to the bus stop, but everybody loving being picked up at their house, hello, that’s what cars do.

[00:23:07] Katherine Freund: So if the buses can do that, or you can use cars to do that, people will pay a lot more for a ride where someone will pick them up at the house, especially if you’re talking about a person with a disability or you’re talking about a person who is older.

[00:23:24] Eric Miller: There’s some really interesting creative solutions that you highlighted there, and I would particularly the volunteers getting credit and paying forward is really creative and interesting, and you mentioned the roads not being free.

[00:23:36] Eric Miller: We have someone here, MaineDOT authority that can speak to that. Are the roads free, Jen?

[00:23:42] Jennifer Grant: As everyone’s well aware, they are not free, no.

[00:23:45] Eric Miller: They’re not free.

[00:23:46] Jennifer Grant: Very expensive.

[00:23:47] Eric Miller: All right. We can do real live fact-checking on this podcast. So you did talk about the importance of volunteers, which is critical in a rural place, and especially in Maine where you have older, an older demographic throughout very rural areas, and how critical they are to the functioning of these programs and connectivity.

[00:24:05] Eric Miller: How, Lisa, how in ARTS, how does community engagement show up in your day-to-day operations? And Katherine highlighted one of the challenges in that volunteers come, can come and go for whatever reason. What do you all, how do you, how much do you all rely on volunteers in your program?

[00:24:23] Lisa Smith: We rely very heavily on our volunteers.

[00:24:25] Lisa Smith: We have a small pool of dedicated volunteers. The training, because of the contracts that we have, is pretty rigorous, like with background checks. We have to do different passenger sensitivity trainings and that sort of thing, so it can be a little bit intimidating for some. And some folks don’t wanna do a background check for whatever reason, sometimes just privacy purposes, they don’t wanna submit to that, so recruiting volunteers has been a huge challenge for us.

[00:24:51] Lisa Smith: However, the group of volunteers that we do have, ARTS would be at a major hardship without those volunteers. They help us with our special service runs, and with such a large area as we have folks, say, down in the Houlton or Linneus area that are willing to transport clients to Lincoln to go to dialysis for some of our veterans that need to go there three days a week.

[00:25:13] Lisa Smith: We have contracts with DHHS that require us to bring individuals to maybe a family reunification visit or a supervised visit. And in those cases, we rely on our volunteers, and we really could not do it without them because we’re seeing the rise in the number of services needed for those types of things.

[00:25:31] Lisa Smith: The numbers are just going through the roof, and the requests that we get daily, especially from DHHS, is, can be very overwhelming. So in order to be able to rely on those volunteers to know that they, you know, stand by ARTS’ policies, our practices, that, our safety, we now have tablets that we use for the volunteers, and so that allows them to see exactly where they need to go to see rather than relying on the paper schedules that we used to have before.

[00:25:59] Lisa Smith: And it also allows us to be able to see where they are. So if somebody calls and says, “You know, this, I’m being picked up a little bit late, and I’m just checking to see. My driver’s usually here by now,” then we can look and see exactly where they are and reassure that client that, you know, they’re just a, you know, a few miles away, and they’ll be there shortly, so you’ll get to your visit on time.

[00:26:20] Lisa Smith: And so I think that the amount of responsibility that we, that our volunteers have is huge, and our agency would definitely struggle without them, and we’re always looking to recruit. Any of the community events we go to or speaking engagements, we always talk about the importance of volunteerism and how we would love to add new volunteers to our pool.

[00:26:42] Lisa Smith: But that number, it’s hard to increase volunteerism because the amount that we reimburse, it’s expensive to drive a vehicle. It’s expensive to have, you know, time that you have to block off and, you know, maybe can’t do other things. So we’re seeing that there is a little bit of a decline, but the volunteer pool we have is just critical to us right now.

[00:27:01] Eric Miller: That’s great to hear. Katherine, you mentioned working with volunteers as well. Does ITN, is, are they, are you all engaging with volunteers to the degree that Lisa is over at ARTS?

[00:27:12] Katherine Freund: Absolutely. In greater Portland area has been operating now for 31 years, and we’ve done over a third of a million rides, well over a third of a million rides, and about half of them are delivered by volunteers.

[00:27:27] Katherine Freund: And it runs without public money. So it, it can definitely be done in higher density areas. It’s extremely challenging in areas like Aroostook County, so I totally understand that. But in the greater Portland area, only 8% of the volunteers will accept a reimbursement for their mileage. The rides are shorter, right?

[00:27:48] Katherine Freund: And it’s a different pool of volunteers. We have just completed a couple years of planning for something called America’s Volunteer Driver Center, and that’s an effort to recruit 150,000 volunteers nationally. And the funding for that was supported by Senator Collins and Senator King to do that planning.

[00:28:15] Katherine Freund: And we just launched, and we actually did a lot of work to develop messages and test them to try to understand w- what is the motivation for people to volunteer. So instead of just talking about how much we need the volunteers, we tried to think, “Why would someone wanna volunteer, and how do we develop a message?”

[00:28:41] Katherine Freund: And we used Facebook. How would we develop a message that would resonate with them? So we had messages that were motivations for people to help others, altruistic reasons, and then we had messages for people to be satisfied with what internal satisfaction for them. And actually, altruism won, but not by a lot, because there’s a lot of different kinds of motivations out there.

[00:29:09] Katherine Freund: We are, we are now, the doors are open for any transportation provider in Maine to sign up with us, and anybody in the state of Maine who wants to volunteer, and we will match them with a provider, Lisa, for no cost. So i- if you’re not yet signed up with America’s Volunteer Driver Center, please do. And Jennifer, any transportation provider in Maine, there is…

[00:29:36] Katherine Freund: We promised our senators when they got this funding for us that we would test messages in Maine and work in Maine. So doors are open, and we’re really delighted to help. The reason we did it at the national level is that, it took me a long time to learn this too, but all volunteerism is local, and people care about their neighbors and care about their community.

[00:30:02] Katherine Freund: And all the volunteer programs in Maine, people do it because they care about their own community. But the thing is that the problems they run into are the same everywhere Right? So they’re different and they’re the same at the same time. I call it the universal face. Everybody’s face is different, but everybody has two eyes, a nose, and a mouth.

[00:30:24] Katherine Freund: So they’re different and the same at the same time. So we tested messages in Maine, New York, and Illinois, and we’re now working with people across the country to volunteer and to, and to sign up to get volunteers. Wish us luck.

[00:30:40] Eric Miller: It’s a big project. That is a big project, and very interesting and hopeful that altruism won out, even if it was by a slimmer margin.

[00:30:49] Eric Miller: Jen, when you’re working with volunteers, and the community in general, widen it to public engagement for a project and what have you, what is the importance of people showing up at those meetings or providing their input?

[00:31:02] Jennifer Grant: Yeah. Public engagement is a really critical piece of what we do, especially here in planning.

[00:31:08] Jennifer Grant: We, as Katherine mentioned, that local perspective, local issues, those are really important for us to be aware of, and the only way that we’re gonna hear about those things is for those folks to engage with us and let us know, right? So public engagement in whatever fashion, we employ a variety of public engagement here, whether it’s in-person, virtual, pop-ups, what have you.

[00:31:34] Jennifer Grant: It’s all very important in allowing us to hear from folks and their perspective. I just wanted to touch a little bit on some of the things that Lisa and Katherine mentioned. I think here at MaineDOT, obviously we ourselves as a state agency don’t rely on volunteers to do our work, however, we’re keenly aware of just labor and workforce shortages across the state impacting all aspects, but especially paid drivers for transit agencies.

[00:32:04] Jennifer Grant: Knowing that, trying to find volunteer drivers is even more difficult in this environment. And so that was one of the things that we also discovered when we were doing our transit plan back in 2023. That was one of the things that really came as a big focus area, was just that labor driver shortage, including volunteer drivers.

[00:32:27] Jennifer Grant: All the way from just the driver recruitment, as Katherine mentioned, the scheduling piece of it, covering costs for mileage, gas, all those things, right? Those are all things that if you’re volunteering matters a little bit more. So I think one of the other things that I just wanted to mention as well, MaineDOT and the Maine Turnpike Authority, we have the GO MAINE program And that is really a platform to connect people with rides.

[00:32:56] Jennifer Grant: And one of the things we’ve done recently is work with volunteer driver networks to ensure that those networks are discoverable on the GO MAINE trip planner. And one of the things we recognize is that people utilizing GO MAINE typically have a specific destination, and so folks are connecting who are also going to that same destination.

[00:33:19] Jennifer Grant: Whereas a volunteer driver program is probably focused more on the individual and getting them where they need to go. So trying to bridge those gaps, I think, is gonna be a little bit challenging, but I think if folks are already using GO MAINE and willing to share rides with other folks, then as Katherine mentioned, they may have those same motivations to be a volunteer driver for a volunteer driver network or program.

[00:33:44] Jennifer Grant: So how do we compel those people be a volunteer driver? So I think those are things that we can definitely capitalize on and leverage and work on moving forward.

[00:33:54] Eric Miller: I really appreciate the holistic view of the issue and understanding the lay of the land down to the labor level because people are driving the vehicles at this point in the vantage point of 2026 at least, and that’s an integral part of the planning process.

[00:34:10] Eric Miller: Lisa, you had mentioned the, like, vigorous or rigorous background check and vetting process that you all have. Would you mind explaining the insurance and liability landscape for volunteer drivers to help people feel, get some buy-in or feel like it’s, they can do it, and what are some of the barriers and misconceptions surrounding that?

[00:34:33] Lisa Smith: Sure. So we make sure that our volunteers know going into it exactly what it is they need to do for training, and it’s not just a one-time training either. A lot of the certifications that we do, it’s an annual or biannual certification. So we make sure upfront that they’re aware of those. And also, we provide a volunteer excess liability insurance so that they know that covers that as well, their vehicle and any liability that they may come across in transporting any of our passengers So we just make sure that they know what they’re getting into, we make sure that they know that they’re covered and that we support them in what they do.

[00:35:09] Lisa Smith: We make clear the expectations, but also that they have expectations of us, and that’s to make them feel comfortable, to make them aware of what’s going on and any schedule changes that happen. So it’s just to have a lot of communication with them and to make sure that they know that they’re well-supported, because they are such an important part of what it is that we do, and there are a lot of rides that we would either have to turn down or try to get rescheduled if we didn’t have the volunteers that we do.

[00:35:36] Lisa Smith: And the services that they provide are critical. I mean, we have volunteers that are doing dialysis transportation, that take cancer patients to critical appointments. We have the DHHS and family reunification. So without those volunteers, we would really be in a tough situation. We do volunteer recognition to make them feel like that they’re supported, because it- it’s not every day that we see them here in the office, as they typically are from the areas outside of our, like, our base here in Presque Isle, so we don’t see them every day.

[00:36:08] Lisa Smith: So it’s a matter of making sure that they know how much they’re appreciated. I know that the clients will call us and let us know just how great it is. Christmastime we get cards, special thanks to the volunteers for the work that they’ve done for us all year, so I hope they know they’re as appreciated a- as they are and that they’re supported here.

[00:36:27] Lisa Smith: And that’s been a big part of have- been able to maintain the volunteers that we have now.

[00:36:32] Eric Miller: I’m glad you really expanded into just cl- collective buy-in and approachability of being a volunteer. Katherine, do you have any programming where, or touch on the insurance and liability or the addressing barriers to engaging with ITN and being a volunteer?

[00:36:53] Katherine Freund: The number one question always is, what about insurance? Number one. So actually, Maine leads the nation in an innovative approach to volunteerism and insurance. Maine passed a bill in 1995, and it was put together by a man named John Clark, who, I don’t know if you know him, Jennifer, or knew him. Did you know John Clark?

[00:37:20] Katherine Freund: He was a highway patrolman and state police and then he became the driver for Governor Curtis. And after that, he became the executive vice president of the Independent Insurance Agents of Maine. So he knew safety, he knew people in public policy, and he knew insurance. And he put together a bill that said that an insurance company may not refuse to insure or increase the premium for an individual just because they use their car to volunteer.

[00:37:56] Katherine Freund: And that law has been copied by seven or eight other states, is really an advanced look at… It, it doesn’t say that they’re not responsible for what they do because they’re a volunteer. It says that they can’t be classified as high risk because they’re a volunteer. And I, I think Jennifer and Lisa will back me up in this, is people who volunteer are very responsible people and they’re very good drivers, right?

[00:38:20] Katherine Freund: So that’s a wonderful bill. The problem with volunteer insurance since then, and it hasn’t impacted Maine, but it’s impacting a lot of other states, is that when Uber and Lyft came along and it… private individuals began using their personal vehicles for livery, the insurance companies wanted to know, “How in the world do we insure this?”

[00:38:43] Katherine Freund: And so an organization called the American Property and Casualty, uh, Insurance Association, big national association for insurance agents, they sat down with Uber and Lyft and they put together model legislation For Uber and Lyft. And that legislation, I’m not a lawyer so I’m just in general, said that if you use an app to do rides, and if you charge a fare, then you’re considered a, what do they call these?

[00:39:17] Katherine Freund: A non- nonemergency medical transport- transportation network company. The problem with that is that many non-profit volunteer organizations do charge a fare. The drivers don’t get anything. They’re not paid, they’re volunteers, and they use technology. So a lot of non-profit programs across the country got swept up in the Uber and Lyft policies.

[00:39:41] Katherine Freund: We are now working with APCIA, American Property and Casualty Insurance, and we’re actually talking to one of the attorneys who put together this policy, which is in 2015, I think. And he was mortified. He said he had no idea that they were sweeping up non-profits. And so they are now working with us to suggest how that policy can be changed, and then we’re talking to AARP about doing something in state legislatures.

[00:40:10] Katherine Freund: So that’s gonna help volunteer recruitment everywhere. So it’ll be much easier to say to volunteers, “You’re safe. You’re…” You know what I say is that, “My cars have seats, so you can drive other people. And if you’re not charging them, you’re volunteering to drive them.”

[00:40:26] Eric Miller: Oh, that’s really funny. And a really interesting element of this issue is the Uber/Lyft ride hailing element of the story, is that in rural areas is there much uptake in…

[00:40:41] Eric Miller: And people like to ride in cars, but how much demand is there to get this market-oriented solution? And I’m curious, Lisa, if how much people utilize those options, and do they… I’m curious what your perspective is on that in, in Aroostook County.

[00:41:01] Lisa Smith: So we’re actually hearing, and part of that is, like, we see on social media, we hear from p- like, the passengers in our vehicles that are talking to the drivers or other passengers about what other options there are.

[00:41:13] Lisa Smith: ARTS does not run on the weekend, so Saturday and Sunday our service is not available. So people will be talking to other passengers about what do you do on the weekend when you need transportation. And I will say that it is incredibly challenging to find Uber or Lyft in Aroostook County. My husband and I were actually at a wedding last summer, and there was a couple from Long Island that was attending the wedding.

[00:41:39] Lisa Smith: And the wife said, “I’m getting tired, so I’m just gonna check with Lyft and get a ride back to the hotel.” And it was hard for her to understand why there is no Uber or Lyft available. And I believe her husband ended up scooting her home. But it’s just something that other areas, people do not understand that there’s not another option, right?

[00:42:04] Lisa Smith: Like, we do the best we can with public transit here in Aroostook County, and we’re doing that very well, but the other options are not out there. We did at one time have a few taxi services here in Aroostook County, but we’re even finding those are actually slowing down as far as just with the on-demand pickup, and that’s because of the non-emergent medical transportation, and there’s more money in that.

[00:42:28] Lisa Smith: So a lot of the taxi companies are now doing transportation for mode of care or for other, for other organizations similar. So we’re finding more and more people are actually using public transportation, even for that reason, because taxi cabs are just not available either. So the really options here that we have available are not Uber, not Lyft, not a whole lot of taxi service.

[00:42:51] Lisa Smith: It’s knowing somebody who might know somebody, knowing somebody who’s going your way, you know, making that connection at work or in a social setting. But other than that, there’s really no other option here.

[00:43:04] Eric Miller: That’s just fascinating. Jen, do you have anything to add on this front?

[00:43:09] Jennifer Grant: Yeah. The only thing I was gonna add, I think both Lisa and Katherine brought up a lot of great points, and I think one of the things that we’ve talked about a lot in the LD 1451 working group is background checks.

[00:43:20] Jennifer Grant: As Lisa mentioned, different agencies, different funding, different groups require different levels of background checks, and are there ways that we can streamline that process for folks so that they’re not having to duplicate background checks, for example? So I think there’s a lot of opportunity with some of those aspects to try to eliminate redundancy, just streamline some of those things so that it does make it more accessible, and remove some of those barriers for people to be volunteers.

[00:43:50] Jennifer Grant: And so that’s one of the things here at MaineDOT that we’re f- trying to focus on is as a state agency, how can we serve in that role to try to reduce some of those barriers and work with other state agencies to, to identify those specific things?

[00:44:06] Eric Miller: As we come to a close in our conversation here, let’s zoom out and look into the future.

[00:44:11] Eric Miller: And so as we try to address these challenges to rural transportation in Maine and how dynamic it is, as we’ve covered in this conversation here, what does the long-term future sustainable transportation look like in rural Maine? And how can community members effectively plug into these initiatives? Lisa, what is your, what’s your vision?

[00:44:33] Lisa Smith: Jen has been talking a lot about collaboration and coordination, and I think that’s a huge part of it. So there are so many reasons for transportation, and there are so many people that are a piece of that puzzle, that I think it is a matter of working together. So I know here we work a lot with the local healthcare organizations, and they will call us and say, “You know, we have a patient who needs to have this treatment done every other Tuesday at this time.

[00:44:58] Lisa Smith: Is there a chance you can help?” And we may say to them, “We can’t do it on Tuesday, but we do have a general public route that comes in on Wednesdays from the Ashland area that could bring that passenger in to get that treatment. So is there a way they can do it Wednesday?” And those healthcare agencies and organizations will work with us because they know that getting to that appointment is critical to the patient.

[00:45:19] Lisa Smith: So it’s talking to other organizations and partners in the community and finding out what the needs are, what their clients have available to them, and us being able to get our message out there about what’s available. Volunteers are going to be huge. As I said, the amount of social service appointments that we have coming in have gone through the roof, so volunteerism is going to be important, and I’m hoping that we can attract a younger group of volunteers so that we can, you know, have them be as part of our volunteer base for the next, you know, 25 or 30 years would be fantastic.

[00:45:52] Lisa Smith: So it’s… I think we have a younger group that would be looking at doing that too, which will be incredibly helpful. There’s a need to want to do better and to make the world a better place, and I think that’s a great picture for all of us to have. And a lot of that comes from working together and having that same sense of shared community and just wanting things to be a good place to live and a good place where we can have neighbors that we can trust.

[00:46:16] Eric Miller: That’s wonderful. Katherine, from the ITN and the work that you all are doing, what’s the future that you’re hoping to create for sustainable transportation options for elders and folks in rural areas?

[00:46:28] Katherine Freund: I would love to see the volunteer efforts in the state of Maine connected into one na- statewide volunteer network.

[00:46:36] Katherine Freund: Currently there are three separate volunteer network approaches in Maine, and I’ve been pleading for them to come together into one network on a unified information system, which I… We have a transportation software that has a data collection for research that the CDC uses and that can report on all of the different medical specialties and all the ride cancellations and everything.

[00:47:05] Katherine Freund: And having that kind of knowledge of what’s happening with volunteer transportation will really help to put the resources where they’ll do the most good and be as efficient and effective as possible, which is really important when resources are scarce. It’s very important piece. So I think for the future for the state of Maine, getting all the volunteer programs together onto one network would be a boon.

[00:47:31] Eric Miller: That makes a lot of sense. Jen, as the planner on this panel, looking toward the future, as is your job, what do you all see in your office as the future of sustainable transportation in rural Maine?

[00:47:44] Jennifer Grant: So reaching back, as far as MaineDOT, we released our family of plans back in 2023, and I think one of the things that was embedded in our family of plans was that overall vision for the transportation system.

[00:47:58] Jennifer Grant: And really it focuses around meeting Maine people where they’re at and making sure that we’re providing and supporting a variety of travel options that help them meet their transportation needs, but also allow them to have a quality of life. So that’s really that overarching vision that MaineDOT has for the transportation system.

[00:48:17] Jennifer Grant: But inherent in that is really some of the things that Lisa and Katherine touched on, which is really making sure that we’re engaging and collaborating with our partners. It’s so crucial. None of us can do it alone. We’re heavily reliant on each other, and I think some of the things Lisa mentioned about transit providers being able to coordinate with healthcare services is such a s- it seems like such a obvious, simple thing, right?

[00:48:42] Jennifer Grant: But those are the types of things that make a huge difference for people So more of that. And I think just underlying all of this is funding, whether it be federal, state, local, or private funding to help support all of these initiatives is just really critical. And being able to identify new sources of funding and sustainable sources of funding will help us all be successful.

[00:49:08] Eric Miller: That’s great, and it’s, it, the threads that I’ve gotten from this conversation is the adaptability, the meeting people where they are, and the human connection that comes with why we’re transporting around is, it’s been really interesting to learn more about from you all. And I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today to talk about your respective areas of expertise.

[00:49:31] Eric Miller: And so as we close out the conversation, I would love to know if there’s any closing remarks or thoughts you had, if anything we didn’t touch on during the conversation that you’d like to briefly mention. Katherine?

[00:49:42] Katherine Freund: My closing thoughts was that I just met Lisa and Jennifer, and I’m gonna call them both and talk to them after this interview because they’re both doing great work, and really that was my thought.

[00:49:54] Katherine Freund: But I guess I would say that I think diversification of funding is going to underpin the success of future growth in transportation. I think MaineDOT has a very hard job to cover a huge land area with scarce resources. And so the more we can increase the resources, because if you think about it, it’s not just the person who takes a ride who benefits, it’s the healthcare provider at the end of the ride, it’s the employer at the end of the ride, it’s the store where they buy their groceries at the end of the ride.

[00:50:35] Katherine Freund: So if we look at it more holistically and get everybody engaged and everybody involved in shouldering part of the cost of the trip and part of the labor of the trip, we’ll move more people in the future, and there will be more people to move in the future.

[00:50:54] Eric Miller: That’s great. Jen, how about you? Any closing remarks?

[00:50:58] Jennifer Grant: Just simply thank you for allowing us the opportunity to talk about such an important topic. It’s been a great hour hearing and learning from my colleagues here, Lisa and Katherine, and just thank you.

[00:51:11] Eric Miller: I’m very pleased to have seem- to done that, to do that today. Lisa, do you have any closing thoughts here?

[00:51:18] Lisa Smith: I think it’s important for people to know that you don’t realize how important transportation is until it’s something that you don’t have readily accessible. Growing up, I was fortunate that my parents were like, “You know, we’re gonna take you to work so that you can earn some money now that you have your permit, and that way there you can get a vehicle so that you can do the things that you need to do as far as school or sports or even just taking yourself to work every day.”

[00:51:41] Lisa Smith: And so I think coming from that background, even in a rural area, I did not realize how many people do not have access to transportation, to reliable transportation, to safe transportation. And I know just in a day myself, if my car’s, you know, getting worked on or getting my tires changed over, I’m almost in panic mode because I don’t have a vehicle available to me.

[00:52:01] Lisa Smith: So when we think about, like with ARTS, last year we did over 62,000 rides for individuals in our service area. And when you think about that, each one of those rides, it’s not just, you know, getting to the grocery store or getting to the doctor’s office, it’s about being independent, and it’s a lifeline essentially.

[00:52:19] Lisa Smith: So I think that if we can get other key players in to talk about the importance of transportation and to get more volunteers on board and to coordinate the resources that we have, I think the state of Maine, however large it is, is doing great things at making sure that everybody stays connected and gets to where they need to go.

[00:52:36] Lisa Smith: And I really appreciate the conversation and then the opportunity to talk about what ARTS is doing, and to also hear from both Jennifer and Katherine to talk about what others are doing and to see that we all seem to have, you know, the exact same shared goal, which is, you know, to get people where they need to go and not have to say no to an essential service or something that they might have that they need to be

[00:53:00] Eric Miller: Beautifully said.

[00:53:01] Eric Miller: And we’ll have links to the reports mentioned and organizations that you all represent in the episode description. And thank you all so much for being here

[00:53:15] Eric Miller: Thank you listener for joining us today. This is Eric Miller, and I’ll see you next time. If you enjoyed this episode and the previous discussions we’ve had on this podcast, please consider donating to the Maine Policy Review by visiting the journal’s website linked in the description. Our team includes Barbara Harrity and Joyce Rumery, co-editors of Maine Policy Review, and Jonathan Rubin, director of the Policy Center.

[00:53:38] Eric Miller: Special thanks to professional writing consultant Katherine Swacha, technical writer Emily Ebersman, and podcast producer, editor, and writer Jayson Heim. Our podcast music is composed by Nathanael Batson. Visit MCSlibrary.org to learn about Margaret Chase Smith, the library, and our work in public policy and education.

[00:53:59] Eric Miller: Find episode materials, the full transcript, and resources in the description of this episode and on the Maine Policy Matters website. Share your topic ideas via the form on our website and follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram. Thanks for listening